I'm not in disagreement with the research mostly because I was born in 1967 and my experience with Christianity was...well...less than adequate to make me see God as a God of love. The difficulty of life itself made it difficult for me personally to see Him as love as well though.
I saw His grace and love in a few individuals as I grew up and it was amazing at what it did to feed my soul. I had received Him as a small child but that was not nurtured by the adults in my life to any significant degree.
I found though that as a 20-year-old adult, I began seeking the Lord as He drew me to Himself despite the lack of the evidence of Him in those around me. Because it was about He and I and I knew that at some level. I'm not sure how that would be for someone who has had little or no exposure to Christianity.
I'm not so convinced we are anti-homosexual. It's not as though we wrote the Bible and made up the rules for healthy spiritual living. We just know what God says about the situation. We do tend to be judgemental...at least I know I do. I try not to be and I tend to judge those in the faith more than those who are not. We all stumble in many things and us being imperfect shouldn't be an excuse for someone to not seek God. Some are more hypocritical than others and more judgemental, but if people take the time to know us I think they would find people who are deeply concerned for them and willing to look to their interests as well as their own. I think if "outsiders" began to walk as Jesus, they would find more mercy for us Christians and they don't have a problem with Jesus because He's not here and if He were they may not find Him so easy to deal with. He was after all fairly straight-forward and even though loving, forgiving, etc. He could be pretty hard on people at least with His words. I know we can do better. It's just not always easy to know how to do that.

Mike, I've felt for years, the church has so much to repent of, and because of the blood on our hands, we deserve most of what we receive. We have no credibility, and that too is deserved. I still believe that, but I also remember Jesus saying that "they hated me, they will hate you also." That there will be people who simply don't want their deeds of darkness exposed. I already said how confused I get sometimes. Having an extremely co-dependant background, which is empathy/mercy/reconciliation out of God's control so that it becomes a weakness, I have to be vigilant I'm not offering a sick and broken version of God's love. I wish I could sort out some of these things, but so far, God has not enlightened me, though I pray for it all the time. I know my job, and the authority He has given me to operate in, is His love. I try to keep my eye's on that so I'm effective. But even then...there will be some who because they don't want God, and they hate His word, they will hate me, and judge me also. Somehow...I can love, not judge, fully accept others where they are at and still abide in Jesus in truth. That's the balance I'm looking for.

We do have some credibility. Let's look at what the world would look like had Jesus not come and there literally were no Christians. There was a study done and it made us and God look pretty good in spite of the Churchs' failings.
Even if we did it perfectly, whatever that looks like, Christ told us that if people didn't repent at the preaching of Moses, they wouldn't believe even if someone were raised from the dead. I'm paraphrasing here and He was speaking of His own people and the specific belief that He was the Son of God, but there is a principle about hearing the Word mixed with faith in those who hear. Apparantly faith does the greater part in convincing people of their need for God. Tares and wolves aside, and that is more than likely where the bad press is originating from more so than genuine followers or maybe some immature believers, we're dealing with more than just a generation gap. We are dealing with a technology gap as well. Probably like no other time in history has there been a generation so unlike in circumstances and surroundings than the previous ones as this one. But God who created all can reveal Himself to them as well as they seek Him. I pray they would have the seed of faith to mix with the hearing of His Word that they may know that Jesus is the living Lord and that they will know Him and find rest and security in that fact. If people disagree with what God says in His Word, I wish they would go to Him with their argument. It was written by people but the Holy Spirit told them what to write. That is where the argument is if there is one not with us.

There is a difference between agreeing with what God says in His Word and making judgement against sinners. We are all sinners who fall short of God's moral law. We must not treat people according to their sin but according to all of the possibilities offered them through God's grace and mercy. We tend to treat people in response to the degree that we rate the sin (the Bible has no such system). For example gluttony is not looked at as being as bad as homosexuality but we allow gluttons to experience all of the sacraments of the church. They are allowed to preach teach, etc. Why? Because we believe in God's grace and that transformation is a process that happens over time as we experience the love, mercy and grace of Christ in community. What happens if a person dies as a practicing glutton? We say that they are saved by grace expressed through their faith in Jesus not condemned because of their failure. The same can be said for gossips the divorced, etc. Many Christians in the church live with someone out of wedlock. I don't believe that this is in anyway Biblical but I am not going to assign them to Hell.

That is true. Agreeing with God's Word and making judgement against sinners (I'm assuming you mean unbelievers and believers alike) are two different things. Also, discerning that something is sin (having the senses sharpened to discern both good and evil) is different than coming to the conclusion that the individual is doomed or going to hell or whatever a person thinks will happen to such an individual (deciding that they are unworthy of God's grace and forgiveness and so not extending to them the love and grace extended to us by God). I see what you're saying. We fall short of more than God's moral law I think....we are totally incapable of expressing the divine nature of God because as a whole before Christ we really didn't have access to partaking of it so we couldn't express it. It just was dead in us so who are we to expect it to have been alive in anyone else?...and even though it is now alive in we who believe..we didn't gain it for ourselves so we are still not in a position to judge and why do it anyway? It's pointless and purposeless since we can not expect the world to be alive. I fully expect from them what they are capable of and it is not judgement to discern their condition and to tell them that their future is bleek without Christ.
As for those who call themselves Christians, It's really not our job description nor have we been given the duty of assigning anyone to hell.

Hi Carolyn,
I'm glad you are able to enjoy your vacation and at the same time catch up on important reading. I haven't actually read the book that Brian McLaren wrote so I guess I am not an expert on what he is promoting that is different than what other's have said or are saying. I have heard gossip which I am reluctant to believe at this point that he does not hold to the infallibility of scripture. Did you read anything in there about that?
I tend to take the totality of scripture I've read over the years and it's seems through deduction, I come to conclusions. Sometimes inductively as well but that isn't a natural talent as the deduction is. Inductive reasoning tends to correlate with a gifting of wisdom and for whatever reason the Holy Spirit tends to operate that way with me. The problems come in when I haven't read enough material but I still tend to draw conclusions based on limited knowledge. So..I'm trying to meditate more because I believe a weakness we have in our fast-paced society is that we don't meditate or think about things long enough for it to positively impact our decisions and conclusions. I hope your time there is refreshing and productive and I will say a prayer for your continued learning during this August break. Your sister in Christ, Michaiah

Carolyn-Lori has read most of "Generous Orthodoxy" and reports the same as you said. What I found in my research on why McClaren is so controversial is because of his casual approach to hell. This is viewed as "anti-Biblical" in the view of hard line Christians. I read his book "Everything Must Change" and I felt in that book he only stated the obvious also, but he went way out of bounds because he tried to give his "backdoor" view on world economics and politics and in some instances he made very untrue statements. As one wise sage once told me..."some people write too many books."

With that being said, I totally agree with his questions about hell (he has an interview on You Tube). But let me reiterate...he has questions about hell and he is bold enough to state them. Does that mean he does not believe in hell...I don't know he doesn't say, he simply questions it.

I recently read the book "The Shack" by William P. Young. Good book, short book, but there is a chapter called "Here Come Da Judge." When you read that chapter it really makes you think. There is a scene where it makes you ask yourself if you could allow one of your children to live in an eternity of hell if you knew that was their destiny. I know I couldn't do it, I would ask God to let me take my son or daughter's place in hell so they may have salvation. I would want to pay for their sins if I could.

God did just that for us with Jesus. And even more Jesus came so we could focus on what we can do....(Love God with all our heart, soul and mind and love our neighbors as ourselves) instead of what we can't do (the law).

Well said!! :)

I have to go get this book now. Jay I so appreciated your post.
Thanks

Thanks, Carolyn, for that well-stated synopsis!! I need to go get this book and add it to my reading...you have aroused my curiosity! I love your heart and the way you look at/state your comments! Thanks for thinking for yourself...it always amazes me when people take what someone else says without any regard to what the truth is!

And thanks, Jay, for your comments...this is another book that I will have to add to my reading! I'm with Suzanne! I appreciated your post, also!

I also started reading Brian McLaren's books (although a different one than Carolyn) when I heard of the controversy. I have found the two that I read to be extremely thought provoking and both have really helped grow my faith. One of the books is about his questions about hell and out of that one, I came away feeling much more amazed with God's grace and love and thinking more deeply about finding ways to help the least in this world. I am really hoping to make my way back to GUM this fall for the conference (even though I am not in church ministry...maybe there can be a track for those in home churches (or thinking of starting a home church)).
I am very glad that Brian has been introduced to me!

My husband who has been attending GUM for 15 yrs. and I have been discussing Brian at length. We do not have his books, but we have many of his articles from both Time and the Washington Post, written by, not about him. We discuss religion at length but are having a difficult time with some of the things Brian says. Carolyn- if any of these issues are in his book, please let us know. First, he does define the "emerging church" goal which is a good starting spot. From Time, he says that the goal is to deconstruct traditional church culture, yet remain true to Scripture. Scripture is very clear about so many issues, I am not speaking of parables, symbolism, allegories, etc. but real Truth. He will not speak about gay marriage , as it is "hurting someone". The Bible speaks clearly on homosexuality- Brain chooses not to. Why? A sin is a sin and as Jesus said "say no when you mean no, and yes when you mean yes". My husband nor I are bigots, but we do go by Biblical mandate. Homosexuality IS a sin, even though we are called to love the sinner but hate the sin. We understand his thoughts on "institutional church" , even if we disagree. I think that the institutional church has bored and hurt many people of all Faiths, yet some of us derive much comfort from it. Deconstruction? Maybe we are misinterpreting the term.

I was thinking about the posts and I am just now looking into some of the books listed here. Focusing on Jesus definitely makes me never really think about hell because I know it doesn't apply here. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". If I accept the validity of the scriptures then I must allow them to interpret themselves because it says that "scripture is of no private interpretation". I guess at that point it is a matter of having the tools to interpret it in context and apply it where it is supposed to be applied. Easier said than done at times but possible. It's like the world has a vast treasure that they know nothing about so they live in poverty until someone says, "hey, did you know you have this inheritance and that the being that created you lived perfectly as a man and as God, suffered and died in your place so that you could have this inheritance?" Even then, they have to believe what you're saying or it does not apply. I wish it did. That's where that free-will thing comes in. "Faith is the substance of things not seen". If the promise were already delivered, there would be no need of Faith. God tells us that the secret things belong to Him and that His ways are higher than ours and we are to have a peace beyond understanding. That certainly doesn't apply to everything we read in the bible or try to learn and understand but some things are harder to understand...like hell.

The last sentence I wrote about unity not being a new concept, it was supposed to be up in another paragraph so it sounds awkward and weird just sitting there at the end of the post. Sorry bout that. I didn't see it until I had already posted. I guess were all on the path, it just seems to get narrower the longer you've been on it or maybe it actually does get narrower. Anyway...blessings.

Accepting people right where they are is central to Jesus.
Reading them the truth and speaking the truth to them is also central. That is how they know how and what to repent of. As time grows on, there will more than likely be many attempts to attain a sense of unity but at the expense of truth and that is false unity unfortunately and has to be addressed. Ya just get to a point where you know that you know too much. I am in much prayer and I thank you that I have this opportunity to pray about this subject. I think I'm going to ask God what He meant about "all coming to the unity of the faith". It could be that He had something in mind that isn't what we have traditionally thought. Like Mike said, paraphrased, being in the denomination we're in as long as it's not overtly abusive or obviously in serious error but being an example of our Lord right there and not necessarily creating another denomination. I like that. It looks like love. It sounds like love. It feels like love. Different levels of understanding. His bride is gathered from the four winds. Is love our motive for staying? If it is...God can use us mightly to help those who need it. Right where we are. I "get" that. It is hard because we may be persecuted right in our own home church if say they are liberal or do things we don't think they should be doing. I guess it's whatever we can handle. I am so unworthy of God's love but I am sooo thankful for it. I can't always be with God's people as a whole and I feel judged for it but maybe some of that is in my own head. I am just going to go now and pray my heart to God. There's so much I need to ask Him and tell Him. The biggest thing...."I need ya to come back...we need ya to come back". I have faith He hears and will accomplish it. In Him, Michaiah

What I am reading in Brian's book is not about styles of worship or particular Christian traditions but goes deeper into who the church as the Body of Christ is to be in the world. He addresses an anemic church that is more into itself than it is the mission of God - as Michael says, it's not primarily about getting us into heaven but to get heaven into the world through us. He is respectfully challenging followers of Jesus to be radical disciples who take the gospel into the world rather than focusing on just getting to heaven themselves.

Brian is not addressing the customs or traditions of our particular Christian backgrounds. In fact, he states how each tradition has enriched his understanding and the depth of his faith walk. Rather, he is addressing the Christian culture that has been self-absorbed, parroting the secular values of the culture rather than truly demonstrating the counterculture values of the kingdom of God. We've focused on a few critical biblical issues (abortion, family values - which are very important) but have neglected the holistic biblical values that deal with the broad spectrum of human need from womb to tomb. I see Brian trying to uncover our neglect. Rather than rehashing what you can find in a lot of Christian writing, Brian is reminding us of the areas of focus that are much neglected.

This isn't about agreeing on everything. We need to be one on the essentials (Jesus as Lord and Savior) and listen to each other on everything else.

Personally, the reason I believe McClaren, Bell and others belong in the "love 'em or hate 'em club" is that they require you to think about what it was Jesus said and did -- I mean, really think about it, to strip away what humans have added onto him through the centuries and get to the core of who he is and what he wants. And to folks like myself this is incredibly refreshing because it helps me to realize that Jesus is here, right now, and relevant in this very moment that, as McClaren states in "Finding Our Way Again: The Return of the Ancient Practices", Jesus is a way of life and not a system of belief.

I think the hate 'em club dislikes McClaren, Bell and others for this very reason. The strength they draw from their faith is derived from the unchanging, static nature of the rituals, traditions, prayers and theologies. It is their rock in the hectic, always-in-flux world we live in.

Ironically, both points of view are right. God, as we have known him since Genesis is unchanging, unflinching and uncompromising. What pleases him and what angers him are clearly defined and true to this very moment. Yet paradoxically, he comes down in the form of Jesus as an agent of change with the goal of upending the whole system. After that, he sends the Holy Spirit down to us so we can figure out what unpredictable thing he wants us to do, at any moment, in this chaotic world in order to learn how to please that unchanging, eternal will.

I think McClaren, Bell and modern Christian thinkers recognize this dual, static-yet-dynamic nature of God. McClaren's "A New Kind of Christian" addresses the dynamic, "Jesus is relevant today and is probably more than what you've been told" nature of God while "A Generous Orthodoxy" and his most recent "Finding Our Way Again: The Return of the Ancient Practices" acknowledge the value in tradition and the validity of several ideas and practices of our Christian past.

McLaren was awarded a Doctor of Divinity Degree (honoris causa) from the Carey Theological Seminary in Vancouver, BC Canada. He admits his lack of a formal theological education and seems proud of this non-achievement. Some may feel his credentials (or lack of) are not sufficient for the role he wants to play.
Visit the Matthew 25 Network site. There’s a letter from Brian McLaren that addresses his views on the current presidential race. He discusses his strong choice for president, the religious right and other hot political topics. It’s an interesting letter that helps define what McLaren is about.
Change the world – yes. Renegotiate the gospel – no.

Thank you all for your input, and answers to my questions. I appreciate the kindness and respect shown here.Michaiah-I think we got off on th wrong foot. I apologize for any part that I played in that. You write with beautiful understanding. Carolyn- thank you also. Rich-will check out that site. BTW- did any one read Brian's rewording of the "Lord's Prayer"? I am just curious as to how others viewed it.Not a slam, just a question. Respect, even if we disagree, is key.Thanks, again!

I enjoyed your response Chris. Very well thought out. I can feel the dual nature you speak of, yet couldn't put it into words, which you did beautifully. I will get the books, and look at the website Rich spoke off, and pray. Thanks everyone for such thoughtful, and insightful responses. I've learned alot.

Thank You Paula.

The Central Essential of our Faith will always be Christ as Lord and Savior. With the world, that's where we start in our verbal and active witness. That's ok. Those who teach should understand that with God a Covenant relationship always involved God's directives on our lives activities and our intimacy with Him. When we are gathered together and the Word is spoken straight from scriptures or in conjunction with our testimony, it has tremendous prophetic impact on people and helps them know what God expects in the relationship.
It has been a tremendous challenge for leaders I think to exist in this world with its' expectations and at the same time fulfill all God wants them too. Talk about stress and walking a tightrope. So..courage to be what we are in the church and in the world and courage to speak Words of life to those in darkness no matter the cost. Could be they just all got tired and figured if they were doing anything right at all, they were keeping their heads above water. Who knows but God.

I think we've neglected ourselves and those in our immediate surroundings and it has created a bit of impotence for the Church...but all is redeemable.

I'm sure Brian has something of value to say. I'm just not sure everything he proposes is necessarily on target. But again that has to be weighed by those capable of doing so.

It could be those in authority need to back up and decide what the essentials truly are before deciding exactly what to do about it because for us who have walked with the Lord a while, I think we know the essentials involve more than just Jesus as Lord and Savior....at least with time and growth, but I'm not sure that message is being communicated to people who have obviously erroneous ideas about what God condones from those who call Him Lord. Sometimes, I think we have trouble with balance. We either get legalistic and focus on nonessentials or we just throw caution to the wind and do whatever our flesh dictates...like children tossed to and fro. It is difficult to even live in this world without being neglected. So much is expected and it ain't no picnic so to speak.

God does indeed work in mysterious ways. I know that God has used this blog to change me. When I first came aboard,it was to talk about abortion,I believe.As a Catholic, I did not understand you, but I expected you to understand me-hello? It doesn't matter who insulted who first, it was wrong, and I am able to see that now.I,also, am guilty of throwing stones, so I ask for a collective forgiveness. Mike knows me -I do not blow smoke up skirts. I do not say what I do not believe. But I have learned so much on this blog- and I know that God guided me here to learn- not only about you, but about me. Do I understand or agree with everything that is taught at GUM? No, but I don't have to, anymore than you have to understand or agree with Catholicism and it's tenants. But we do owe one another respect and kindness. We all believe in God. We are all trying in our own ways. This is not a "Catholic" blog, yet no one told me to get off, as they might have been justified a few times in asking. We are all children of the same God, and it took a lot of work on God's part to get me here. We have a little statue of St. Francis by the fireplace, and it reminded me of what Jenny had blogged. "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.....grant that I may not so much seek to be understood as to understand....." How many times have I looked at these words, yet looked through them? We are all brothers and sisters in Christ- warts and all!Thank you for helping a Catholic sister understand.

@Paula,

Everyone is invited to participate on this blog. In cyberspace, just as in real life (or meatspace as my fellow geeks refer to) we meet people where they are at and we listen to, learn from, wrestle with, and sometimes disagree with the people we interact with. Maybe we even hurt someone or get hurt by someone here. We forgive, as Jesus did, and we move forward.

It is a wonderful thing.

Myself, I have been challenged almost weekly by this blog and I think it helps me to work out some of the hard parts of our faith. It also helps me to at least, tolerate if not understand where others come from.

I could give a hoot if a person is atheist, Methodist, Catholic, Buhddist or whatever. We all have value and we all are children of God and are asked to do unto others as we would do unto ourselves. I continue to look forward to learning from each and every one of you.

Welcome.

Paula, where can I read his version of the Lord's Prayer?

Rich- go to www.everythingmustchange.org, go to the right side of the page, where you see "need support", then look for the "Lord's Prayer" underneath. BTW- thank you for the Matthew 25 site. I can honestly say, that it challenged my thinking, it made me think in a different light.

Thanks Paula – the Lord’s Prayer should remain unchanged in my opinion. His followers asked for instruction on how to pray. In response, Jesus of Nazareth recited a short prayer. If it’s good enough for one billion Christians, it’s good enough for me!

I will always meet people where they are and if they ask, I'll give them the hope that purifies. I am even compelled to ask them where they are and if we can dialogue about that. I think working through the tension and thoughts may present some communication challenges and learning. It's a beautiful thing to see the love created by genuine dialogue among God's Kids.

About the prayer...I read it, and am not crazy about the Our Father and Mother part, though I understand God has all of those elements in His nature, it still sounds new age and He is 1 God, even amidst the trinity. The rest of it wasn't really a problem for me. Elmer Towns wrote a book called Praying the Lord's prayer for Breakthrough, and in it he breaks down each line of the Lord's prayer, and what it is we're asking for. I have found it very meaningful instead of simply repeating the Lord's prayer verbatim, I dwell on the meaning of each line. There is still a place for simply saying it, together especially as a congregation...but I don't have trouble with updating the language as long as the content or intent is not changed. The entire translation called The Message is very similar. I love to pray scripture, and to do that I have to reword it some and personalize it. I don't take it out of context or change the meaning, but the words aren't exactly the same as written. Rich, which Matthew 25 website...there are multiple sights all with a different focus!
I don't have a problem with non-credentials. One of my favorite teachers, who has the heart of Jesus as I've never seen anywhere else, has no formal theological training. It was a straight simple call from God.

matthew25.org
latest news

Rich, would you explain how you feel Brian is renegotiating the gospel...this is not a challenge, an honest question. I read his letter, and am failing to see much to disagree with except for his alliance with Obama, which I'm not convinced of by a long shot. Talk is cheap, and politicians are politicians first. Have they put Obama's voting records anywhere on that sight? I'd like to see those. Anyway, your post made me think you had drawn some condclusions. I'd like to know your opinion.

Hi All, Many Christian leaders have endorsed political candidates through the years. My good friend Kirby Jon Caldwell endorsed George Bush in the last two elections. He has been considered this presidents pastor and has given the last two inauguration prayers and performed the marriage ceremony for Jena Bush this year. He is endorsing Senator Obama this time around. James Dobson has endorsed every republican candidate in my adult memory including John McCain which he swore he would never do during the primaries. I do not believe in making personal endorsements as I believe Christian leaders need to be political but not partisan. I do not believe however that just because a christian leader does endorse a particular candidate that it negates their witness to the gospel.

Still in the mountains! Still reading! My current fiction read is The Shack by William P. Young. Jay referred to this novel in his previous post. Through the story of a father working through the grief of losing his abducted, murdered daughter, Young gives us great insight into the Trinity and God's overwhelming love for us - but he does it in a very nontraditional way. Can we learn the truth about God through the portrayal of the Trinity as an African-American woman known as Papa, a middle-eastern carpenter, and an Asian woman representing the Holy Spirit? That will shake the foundations of many believers, but I am reveling in what is revealed through these portrayals.

I appreciate so much the discussions taking place with such respect and acceptance of each other. We can't deny the backgrounds we come from or the experiences we've had - they have made us who we are. There is a richness in realizing that our background and experience combined with the contributions of others from other backgrounds and experiences gives a more full expression of faith. That is truly freeing. I appreciate the lack of judgment and willingness to dialog.

Rather than endorsing a specific candidate, it would probably be a better idea for leaders to just say who they're voting for personally but let people know that's just their choice and not necessarily endorsed by the church or a specific denomination. People may want to know why the person is voting a specific way and that may lead to their asking questions which would further educate them in the political arena...which is a good thing. Sometimes a person just votes the lesser of two evils so to speak because they have the freedom to make a difference so they try even if it's not exactly the way they would want it. I usually vote Republican because while it places more responsibility on the church due to the tendency for people to lose work and the government programs aren't as extensive, it also tends to cause people to find ways to rely less on the government and to educate themselves in areas maybe they wouldn't otherwise feel a motivation to.

I hope the remainder of your vacation is restful, Mike and Carolyn. I hope all the rest of you have a great weekend. May you be blessed. Bye all, Michaiah

@ Rich B

So you have the Lord's Prayer in the original Aramaic exactly as Jesus spoke?

The Gospels weren't written until many years after Jesus' death so it was passed on by memory alone for a long time. My point is, it has been translated over and over again and even in English varies depending upon the version of Bible you are reading. (e.g. read the Lord's Prayer in The Message vs. the King James Version.) The earliest version we have of it is Greek, which is of course a translation since Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Greek. More...

Lisa,
Disagreements over biblical truth are inevitable. We owe each other at least the honesty of taking a position, arguing for that position and facing the consequences of our theological convictions. McLaren will not answer questions for not to offend anyone. Example – whether there will be anyone in hell. He’s referred to such questions as “weapons of mass distraction”. As for the open letter on Matthew 25, I thought it was interesting reading and was not trying to devalue him. Last thing, those were his comments of being proud not to have any formal theological education. He’s insinuated that “formal theological education is likely to trap persons in a habit of trying to determine right belief”.
Rich

Chris,
No, the original words are not available. Many believe the disciples wrote down sayings of Jesus during and after sermons. These writings were in Aramaic and have been referred to as the “Oracles of the Lord”. The Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13) could have been contained in its original form in this collection of sayings. Nevertheless, as you stated, the Gospels were not written until after the death of Jesus – we have to depend on and believe in what has been historically submitted.
Rich

I loved the Shack Carolyn!! I couldn't read through the tears at times, but I thought it was an excellant book. I remember John Eldredge talking about fairy tales, and how they communicate immportant principles. While his portrayal of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were not factual as the bible portrays them, I thought they spoke of elements of God in a new way. I loaned it out and now you've made me want to read it again...rats!

I forgot I wanted to thank you Rich for explaining your thoughts for me. I get really confused sometimes about whether we are being distracted from the gospel by focusing on things like that, or like you said, refusing to take a stand for truth, whether it's pleasant truth or truth no one wants to hear. I don't want to be co-dependant
in my approach to truth...no boundaries, only doing what makes me feel good or right. God's love does what is best for us, no matter the cost to him, as he demonstrated by giving his son. I looked at the definition and some of the articles on Wikipedia about the Emerging Church movement. For the most part, it sounds like us. There seems to be a weakness with dealing with absolutes though, which would be a common post modern problem. I think I'll just go back to praying....that way I know that I'm doing my job for the protection and decisions my leaders will be making. It's over my head.

Rick Warren who is pastor of Saddleback Church, is going to interview both presidential candidates from his church Saturday evening, August 16. It will be televised on CNN beginning at 8:00pm. Rick is a straight up pastor and will not hedge on any questions that he will ask about faith, views on abortion, etc. Rick also believes that it is not his position to endorse a particular candidate. His church like Ginghamsburg is made up of republicans, democrats and independents.

Being edgy is good and keeping people busy, occupied & motivated who tend to get bored is important but sometimes it seems as though leaders feel that they must come up with some new thing all the time. In the question of the Lord's Prayer, it would matter greatly to know what Brian meant by some of the things he decided he could translate better than had already been translated. I'm not gifted as a Scribe so I wouldn't attempt to change a reputable version of Scripture. Is Brian wanting to speak the language of the day or does he truly have some "New Age" beliefs that he is attempting to sell us? That would be my question.

I personally believe that the very earliest translations of Scripture can be relied on for their content as well as their intent. The Holy Spirit knew we would need an accurate record of what transpired and "A Harmony of the Gospels" reflects the integrity and consistency of scripture, I believe like not many others. So in ascertaining whether a translation is culturally relevant and yet retains the true meaning of the Scripture, I always look as far back as possible to compare whether new translations are getting careless with the Word. What the Apostles wrote was fully inspired by the Holy Spirit who was perfectly capable of bringing to their rememberance all they had learned, heard & saw. I read in faith always leaning toward the side of mercy and interpreting the most righteous thing from Scripture.

It's probably good to find a sense of confidence in who we are in Christ and in who He is in us rather than gain our esteem from others and self from "name dropping" and bragging about people we know or how well-known we are (people will know if we are well-known or educated or whatever. We don't necessarily have to tell them) or how many books we or others have written or how awesome we are or have been or whatever. Not that Brian necessarily does this.

I am so looking forward to Rick Warren's time with the Candidates. Thanks for the info. I have been wanting to attend a conference of Rick's for a while so this ought to be a wonderful time to get to know his beliefs a bit better.

Congrats on the new teaching pastor.

Just for the record carolyn...I think you got more responses from your one post than any thus far. Congrats on the record (lol)!! Hope you are having a great mountain trip. Awesome job Mike in the choice for a new teaching pastor...see you in sept.

Michaiah- wow! I loved your post about The "Lord's Prayer".
Amen! And you as so right about the education. Some on my mentors have been not only JPII and Mother Teresa, but also Billy Graham- I love watching his old Crusades on TV. I don't know or care if he had formal education- I just believe that he had/ has such a Christian heart, and was sincere in his guiding people to Christ. I hope that your Mother is doing well. You are a good person, Michaiah- you have a wonderful, caring heart. Every one on this blog is teaching me to be a better person- Lord knows I am a big work in progress! I need to get some of those yellow construction cones, and a sign that reads" Caution- work in progress". Peace!

Rich- I have read, and reread "Matthew 25." The reference to "the least of these" is a favorite for both my husband and myself.Brian made me think "outside of the box" , and think about as he says," to step beyond self- interest," beyond "what's best for us' ,to "use our vote on behalf of the neediest, the most vulnerable,etc" ..."so that THEIR concerns are our own when we vote". "This is inherent in what it means to be followers of Jesus". So often we do vote for our own self- interest. I know when tax levies come up (and we are in the Northmont Dist. so it always seems to be an item ), I have to be honest and say the first thing that comes to mind is not that this will affect our schools/ children in a positive manner, but I ask myself "how much will this increase our taxes"? I am placing my interests above those of the children. But to get a bit deeper into "the least of these" , which candidate will be the best? Who will do the most for the "least of these"? We have so many who fall into this catagory.People are imprisoned and impoverished both literally and figuratively. We have street people, not by choice, but by circumstance (loss of job, loss of home, bad health, no insurance, etc) . We have Darfur, violence- so many issues to think about - the election is less than 90 days away now. It is getting scary. Rich, I do keep referring back to that article, and some of our friends will be voting for the "other"candidate.

I apologize if I gave the wrong impression - I never compress my beliefs and values; religious or otherwise. Our views on the unborn seem to be consistent. While discussing Brian McLaren I found his letter on the Matthew 25 website relevant to our conversation only because of how his religious and political views seem to be inconsistent with each other. By that I mean supporting a Pro Choice candidate. The intent was not to show my political persuasion in either direction. But again, I want to clear the air – I have roots in the Roman Catholic faith and have always considered taking the life of an unborn child a serious sin against The Lord and humanity - not to mention the child and family as well.

Rich-no apology necessary. Thank you for clarifying, though. I understand. I'm glad that we share the sanctity of life, this is definitely a core belief.You know that I could go on forever about this topic,but I won't : ) The "debate" was interesting. Everyone was respectful and gracious, but I do wonder where Rick got his stats on abortion. Even Planned Parenthood admits to almost 50 million (they use Guttmacher), and they have a vested interest in keeping the #'s low. It was, I thought a great forum; I would love to see more debates in this venue.

I felt a bit more of a connect with Obama than McCain during their time with Rick Warren. I want to believe that Barak has our best interest at heart and being President is far from being a simple task; however, I am completely perplexed at the lack of ability to see the absolute need to stop the legislation of abortion. If we as a people are ok with knowingly and willingly doing what has been documented to a fetus inutero who feels every ounce of pain involved in their being aborted just because they can't make a sound and put up a fight for their lives, what are we capable of doing to anyone if given the power to do it? That's the problem with secular humanism: It looks like God and we may even buy it for a while. Usually just long enough to get a cosmic spanking from our God. Problem is, it is a form of godliness but denies the power and will fail us all in the end. It's about the use of power when we have it tells of our true character. One thing I loved about Jesus is that He had the power to literally kick the crap out of everyone who opposed Him, but He chose to lay down that power and let us kill Him in much the same way some abortions are committed at least in effect.

That's what I think of abortion and it's supporters. I pray they do not get judged in the same manner that they have harmed the innocent life of the unborn. When I saw the remains of the people at the World Trade Tragedy, I couldn't help but think of an abortion. Dismembered remains just lying around and piled up. We thought that was a tragedy but some don't see abortion in the same light.

Chris-I loved the way that you broke down the "Lord's Prayer" for viewing. IMHO- I think that Scripture should not be changed. But I thought of you this AM, when reading an article from the Aug. 10th newspaper, the "National Catholic Register". The article is entitled "Language of Jesus Lives On". Believe it or not, there is an area (I was shocked) in Maaloula, Syria, where Aramaic is still spoken. It states that there has not been formal education in the language, but the spoken language has been handed down from one generation to the next. It is spoken by both Christians and Arabs.In this town, there is even an "Aramaic Language Institute". So, I guess it is conceivable, that the original prayer might be available, if you want to venture over to Syria. : ) BTW- thanks for your kind words. I do feel welcomed.

I missed part of the program, but saw the last half of Obama's part, and all of McCain's. The one thing I loved, was no mud slinging. It felt like you were actually (maybe) hearing what the candidates really felt, although a couple times, I felt like Obama changed the question that was asked in order to answer in a cautious way. The question about evil and his response to it bothered me. I hope I can catch the program again, or maybe it's online, and see if I feel differently. I felt like McCain pretty much voiced my values, but I haven't looked at his voting record yet either. It's not that I feel Obama doesn't want something good for this country...I just don't agree usually with that party's way of accomplishing their goals and he just seems more of the same. There is a book out, I haven't read yet that kind of speaks to the fact that nobody is really examining him, and why? Normally, you would not make it this far without every jot and tittle being examined, poked and prodded. I asked someone if they had seen his voting record and they said there really isn't one as he is not there to vote most of the time. So what has he done that makes him ready and able to take on this job? Even when I try to do research on these candidates, who do you trust? It just seems to be about winning anymore, not about this country.

Here's a look at Obama's voting record while serving in the IL State Senate

BUDGET & TAXES

Voted to raise the minimum wage in Illinois from $5.15 an hour to $6.50 an hour over two years. (2003)
Helped pass a 5 percent earned-income tax credit for low-income working families in 2000; made the credit permanent in 2003.
Voted to end $300 million worth of tax breaks for businesses. (2004)
Voted against making permanent the repeal of the state’s 5 percent sales tax on gasoline. (2000)

HEALTH CARE

Voted for having Illinois endorse embryonic stem cell research. (2004)
Successfully sponsored the Health Care Justice Act, a study of ways to implement a universal health care system statewide. (2004)
Voted against restrictions on public funding of abortion. (2000)
Successfully co-sponsored a prescription drug discount buying club program for seniors and the disabled. (2003)

CRIME & GUN CONTROL

Voted against letting people argue self-defense in court if charged with violating local weapons bans by using a gun in their home. (2004)
Voted to let retired police and military police carry concealed weapons. (2004)
Successfully sponsored requirement that law enforcement videotape interrogations of suspects in some serious crimes. (2003)
Successfully sponsored law enforcement study of the race of people pulled over for traffic tickets. (2003)
Helped pass an overhaul of the state’s troubled death penalty system. (2003)
Unsuccessfully sponsored measure to expunge some criminal records and create an employment grant program for ex-criminals.

And John McCain's voting record...

Abortion

Supports repealing Roe v. Wade. (May 2007)
Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007)
Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
Voted YES on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003)
Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
Voted YES on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)

Budget & Economy

Bailing out Bear Stearns necessary to protect economy. (Apr 2008)
Key is to not to bail out homeowners who speculated. (Apr 2008)
Things are tough now, but we're better off than in 2000. (Jan 2008)
May have to go further to fix the subprime lending situation. (Jan 2008)
Recession is partly psychological and not inevitable. (Jan 2008)
Impose some fiscal discipline to revive the economy. (Jan 2008)
Will be able to reduce war costs & have a stable Middle East. (Jan 2008)
Reform insurance to cover violent weather patterns. (Jan 2008)
To avoid recession, stop out-of-control spending. (Jan 2008)
Loss of economic strength leads to losing military strength.

Rich, thank you for doing that. What site did you get your info from? I listened to the interviews again yesterday, and did feel a bit differently when I finished. I liked some of Obama's answer's more, (guess it helps not to have people narrating during the show! ha!) but still not sold. Don't think it's going to happen. Thanks again.

Lisa,
I Googled both voting records for Obama and McCain. There is alot out there on McCain due to his tenure...
Rich

A Servant Appeal:I believe in being a "radical follower of Jesus Christ". God chose me over 20 years ago (who am I to question God) to be a "voice for the voiceless". I would not have chosen this myself, there is too much heartbreak involved, but I know that when God calls us,we follow. So an advocate fot the preborn, from the momement of conception until natural death, is what I will die being. It is a "God-calling". Humbly, I beg of anyone who says that they are pro-choice, or are voting for Obama, to please view what "choice "is. I am not speaking out for myself, but for the babies. There are some good sites on the Web , 2 of them being Abortion.NO.com, and a new one put together by not only a pro-life group, but also Dr. Gary Cass of the Christian ADC- obamawantsyou.com. These are graphic sites, because abortion is graphic, so I issue a warning before viewing. So many people that I have spoken to believe in a woman's choice, until you show them what this "8 or 10 wk. old Blob" is. Blob of tissue ,it certainly is not- Please look at the pictures, these are babies, there's no denying the pictures. BTW- these pictures were obtained from aborted babies, rescued from dumpsters, where they were thrown away as "trash". God doesn't make trash or mistakes. I know that there are so many issues -Darfur, poverty, global warming, health care, war, etc.

Paula have some peace in knowing that our God will bring all of these babies back to us and is perfectly capable of doing so. Have peace concerning at least that. I will vote for McCain if for no other reason than that it may slow the devastation. Have a good day.

My family and I will certainly be praying for your retreat and those with you. May the Lord be with you and reveal His heart more fully to you for your joy and the writing of your book. Be safe in your activities. God bless.

Hey dad! Hope you and mom are having fun! We can't wait to join you down there in a few weeks! :)

God bless both of you and then your team who will join you later...sounds like a great time to be alone with God!!

As you know, I love all of your books and can't wait to read the next one! I'm trying to get some time to read Alan's book, THE FORGOTTEN WAYS...so I will know what your references mean.

I just listened to Jack Canfield yesterday (DREAM BIG and
THE SUCCESS PRINCIPLES). He made an interesting statement:

"Never tell anyone that something cannot be done. God may have been waiting for someone ignorant enough of the impossible, to do that thing!"

Thanks to both of you for living to do the impossible!!

By the way, I like the picture...HAVE A GREAT VACATION/
BIBLE STUDY!!

May God bless you & your family with His peace and all goodness. Prayers for all of your safe travels, Jenny

Hey Mike and Carolyn enjoy "re-creating" it is so important to have time alone with the Spirit in order for God's vision to become clearer. I am sure you will come back with more energy than ever before.

Mike-get a bike with pedals buddy and ride some hills...great workout!

Any chance that I can get a look at your draft? I'm sure not, but it looks interesting to say the least. Can't wait till it publishes.

Have fun down there!

I would like to thank all of the servants at GUM who do the work and keep things going everyday and when the "team" is on vacation. May God bless you greatly for your sacrifice and love of Him. You are the heroes of GUM. I'm ignorant enough to dream of something incredible and I have TOTAL faith that God will bring about what He has said. May August be a month of rest for all who need it. Blessings.

On this glorious day, feast of St. Martha: I John 4: 7-16:
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that Godhas for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him." Blessings to all and thanks be to God!!

I want to give a shout-out to Scott Berlon and Dave Davies who day after day enter the Transformation Journal content for the world to read.

Your service is appreciated and meaningful guys!

I have been manager of GIVE Ministries of New Path, Inc. for almost a year now. I have seen the sacrificial giving of all of the servants who work so hard here to prepare medical equipment to give out to so many in need.

I have said this to everyone I email, talk to, grant committees, churches I speak to, and to the servants themselves: I know God is blessed by the servants of GIVE...they are the best...the absolute best!! They have a heart for serving God, a love for GIVE, and a mission heart for serving others! I am blessed to know all of you!! Thanks to an awesome group of servants who give the praises to God!!

I have the privledge of working with a bunch of Jesus followers who amaze me daily. We do physical therapy for the home bound which is a great honor. It is nothing for me to go in to see a patient and here something awesome one of my assistants has done. It is always above and beyond the call and so many people see Jesus not by their words but by their actions....thank you for the fine example ladies...

I am always moved by family who takes care of one another's needs primarily if there are members in that family who require extra care. So often I see people serving everywhere except at home and for those whom God has given them first. So for me the heroes are those who care for the immediate needs of their families and local church members then out to the world. Even though signs by the side of the road may seem trite depending on what they say, I like seeing a sign that says "Jesus is Real". It's a beautiful statement and may be water for someone living in a lifestyle that they are seeking to extricate themselves from and this may give them a word of hope. For some Christians who have a less than adequate view of their priorities, I would hope they would seek to serve within God's will including myself. Everyday, I must tell Jesus to be alive in me and speak through me and be action through me and He is faithful. For some of us, serving in the capacities we are in leaves us with desire to serve in other capacities as we have been gifted. Sometimes, I would like to speak as Lisa Sowry did or impact in other areas of gifting that I have but because this is my first calling, I take it seriously to put it first. Being able to blog though gives me tremedous outlet though and helps me feel a part of things even while doing so many everyday, unchallenging yet difficult things. I got to see the McKinley Church and I'm happy for the Methodist church. I hope all goes well. Michaiah

I give praise to all the genuine Jesus followers and their love for Christ and His word. Even for those just learning to walk, it is a wonderful thing to serve Christ purpose in the world.

I lift up Tim McLean as an obedient and humble follower of Christ. He is a local contractor who has been a leader for multiple Ginghamsburg mission trips.
The Lord put Haiti on his heart and he answered that call. He has been to Haiti 3 or 4 times to date and along with the help of some Christian friends who share his passion for missions he started a non-profit organization to raise funds, support, and awareness for the people of Haiti. To me Tim is a powerful reminder of how we should answer God's call- with passion and expedience.

As one who has benefited from Dr. Steve Guy's leadership many times now, I want everyone to know how much we love and respect him and all he does for the people of Jamaica. He comes here to primarily love. He will tell you, our medica